Posts by Cold Steel

48

I got publically disfellowshipped about 50 minutes ago

by bottleofwater in

woohoo!!!

i'm not at the meeting; i just know when the meeting ends..

Cold Steel

Please don't fall for the Mormon ads that keep popping up, okay?

Why not?

36

Another 144,000 Question

by Cold Steel in

okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. first, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on earth.

second, a spirit (in wts eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human.

they can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with god for eternity.. but what of everyone else?

Sorry, but no. Flesh and bone that has HUMAN blood (vs. God's blood, which is holy spirit)... cannot do these things. Unlike the spirit body... which is FREE... the physical body is bound. Enslaved. And a slave. To its desires. Thus, it must not only eat and drink (which the spirit body must do, as well)... it must sleep, expel waste, age, get sick... and die. The wonderful thing is that such bodies will no longer exist... except as to Gog. But Gog will not remain forever. Along with Magog... Gog will be brought to their end.

Ah, "flesh and bone" is not the same as "flesh and blood."

When Jesus was resurrected, he was flesh and bone, and animated by spirit. He still bears the prints of the nails in his hands and feet, and when he appears to the Jews he will still have his resurrected body.

5

Who did Jehovah send as his representative?

by wannabe in

who did jehovah send as his representative?.

is there anyone today, who can make a legitimate claim to being followers of the truth?

most of the main-line religions of this world all vie for special appointments, and will tell us that they are jehovah's representative organization.

Cold Steel

What religion(s) on Earth today claim to have revelation from God, just as it was given in ancient days? The problem with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they weren't commissioned, but were self-commissioned and self sent. Thus they are a manmade religion. They go forth into the world and claim to have the authority of God, but when asked about it, they fall silent.

They attack "false religion," yet they qualify as one in that they were never called, ordained and sent into the world.

I see ads on the Internet where you can get a ministerial certificate for $25-$50. You can even frame them and put them on the wall. The WTS cannot be seen as anything other than a publishing company. Aren't members even called "publishers"? Amos 3:7 says God will do nothing save he reveal it unto his servants the prophets. Thus, a church must be commissioned and have prophets to be legitimate.

The only mediator between God and Man is Jesus Christ, also known as Jehovah. After Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, Jehovah became the mediator and will serve as such until the end of the Millennium, when he will present the Earth, redeemed and glorified, back to the Father. The Witnesses mistook Jehovah as the Father, even though Jehovah takes the same name titles as the Son in the Old Testament. Jehovah also will come to judge the nations, yet John 5:22 says that the Father judges no man, but has committed ALL JUDGEMENT unto the Son. In Zechariah, Jehovah says, "And they (the Jews) shall look upon me whom they have pierced."

38

JW's are not nice people

by Nickolas in

i cut and pasted the subject line from a comment made by one of this board's longtime members.

it got me wondering if this is the prevalent thinking in here.

for a very long time i believed that jw's and all fundamentalist christian folk are a cut above the norm.

Cold Steel

The problem with the JWs is that so many of them are in transistion from the faith that it might be similar to someone going through a divorce.

They're not a bad people. It's just that the religion cannot keep sustaining itself. Like someone who builds upon the sand, as the rain comes down and the water comes up, there's not many places they can run. Some become so entrenched in it that when they realize the church has not been commissioned, they many times give up on all religion. They mourn for that which they lost and which, in fact, they never had. Once they've bought in to the doctrines, they look for things that are similar in other faiths when they should start with a fresh sheet of paper and rethink things from the ground up.

No one can judge an entire people by just a few. One of the fellows who came to see me was clearly stressed over something. Over what I have no idea, but he was tense. Whether it was work, his marriage or his religion, I have no clue. In many cases, I think it's best to let people keep their religion rather than risk losing their grasp on things. Still, some people don't let up until they've undermined someone else to a point where it can have a negative effect on their lives.

36

Another 144,000 Question

by Cold Steel in

okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. first, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on earth.

second, a spirit (in wts eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human.

they can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with god for eternity.. but what of everyone else?

Cold Steel

Okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000.

Yes, absolutely. No disagreement there.

And that...is where the problem starts. The Revelation is a revelation. It is a revealing. And it is Jaheshua who “reveals” it to you, you personally.

Well, the revelation came to John. Today, churches say God no longer reveals anything; that the days of revealing are over. I don't belive that. We need revelation today more than at any other time in history.

If you're a JW, what do you think? Would you choose to be one of the 144,000 if given the choice?

Certainly.

CS, you (we) don’t have “a choice” in whether we become part of the 144,000. The text plainly says where the 144,000 come from. Read it again: 12,000 from this tribe, 12,000 from that tribe, etc., etc., etc., from the nation of Israel. You do not have a choice as to what tribe you belong to—you are from a particularly tribe of Israel or you are not. It’s not a question of choice other than IF you are a member of one of those tribes, do you accept God’s provision for salvation? And, does God place you within that 12,000 group from that specific tribe of which you belong. Obviously the tribes numerical volume were/are larger than 12,000, but the 12,000 places are saved/reserved out of those twelve tribes. Are you among them is the question?

According to the scriptures, the 144,000 are chosen by the Father, and they have the Father's name emblazoned on their foreheads. But are we to take everyone's word for it that they're chosen? I have never been to a Kingdom Hall, so I don't know whether any notice is taken when someone partakes of the emblems. I do know, however, that sometimes people (being what they are) show signs of jealously and resentment. If someone shows themselves publicly as being chosen one of the 144,000, I'd think it could lead to chatter.

Are you a person from one of those twelve tribes? Which tribe? I suppose you could be, but ONLY if Jah places you in your respective 12,000 number from that tribe can you even be one of the 144,000. If you are NOT an Israelite/Israeli from any one of those specific twelve tribes, you will never be one of the 144,000. However, you can be a member of the great crowd from among ANY of the nations of the earth (not Israel) who will rule as kings and priests.

Again, I'm with you. But JW theology doesn't buy into that. They believe in a "spiritual" fulfillment. It's one reason they confuse themselves with "Jerusalem" in Armageddon. Actually, unless you're in Jerusalem at the time, there's a good chance you won't even know the battle is going on until the very last part, when Jesus/Jehovah returns and the saints are caught up to meet him. At that point he will enter the East Gate of the Temple and will take his proper place as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

36

Another 144,000 Question

by Cold Steel in

okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. first, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on earth.

second, a spirit (in wts eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human.

they can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with god for eternity.. but what of everyone else?

Cold Steel

I personally don't buy into the idea that angels came to Earth and took wives. It's a myth that goes back into some non-canonical writings, some of which are quite old. What I think happened was the Balam strategy, which the fallen prophet devised to defeat the Israelites under Moses. The "Sons of God" are not angels at all, but humans who had accepted the covenants of God and were known by that term. The "daughters of men" referred to the daughters of the idolators, who led the children of the covenant astray. This whole business of the Watchers (fallen angels) is simply the equivilent of ancient science fiction. From the Wikipedia:

In 1 Enochand Book of Jubileesthe Genesis 6 text was developed into a complicated mythology of fallen angels. The 2nd century B.C. Book of Enoch turns the "sons of God" into fallen angels, referred to as Watchers, who came to earth and had children with human women, resulting in a race of half-angel, half-human beings known as the "Giants" (Nephilim). The view is found in Philo and in Josephus Antiquities 1:73 (or 1:3.1). However not all Jews accepted the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6. Rabbi Shimeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse on any Jew teaching the Enochite interpretation, and, later Trypho the Jew rejected the interpretation. This was followed by Rashi and Nachmanides. Some commentators on Luke 20:34-36 believe that Jesus was also familiar with the Enochic interpretation, and can be counted with Shimeon ben Yochai, since Jesus rejected that angels could marry and in the same passage equated the "sons of God" with humans.

The Enochite interpretation is bizarre and the Jehovah's Witnesses are about the only religion that buys into it nowadays. Everyone can believe as they wish, as the biblical account allows for either interpetation. In times of rampant apostasy, all sorts of ideas come into play. I believe in the beginning, Satan and one-third of the host of heaven fell; but I don't buy the Enochite, or Enochian, notion. Angels don't have the ability to procreate, nor "materialize" as it suits them. The WTS believes these first angels (Satan and his hosts) weren't immediately cast out of heaven, but were "tolerated" for many thousands of years until Jehovah decided to toss them out, and upon the Earth.

The Witnesses believe the "sons of God" are angels because in Job 38 it says: " all the sons of God began shouting in applause." But nowhere does it say these were angels. It's an assumption. For those of us who believe in premortality, it means all of us who were present before the foundations of the Earth were laid. If men and angels were separate beings, why would God need to create man after He had created the angels? And how long did he think Adam and Eve could exist in a crummy garden before their brains turned to mush? He had to know they would eventually partake of the forbidden fruit. In fact, I believe He was counting on it. He did, after all, know all things from the beginning. He would have had to have known the Garden was only a temporary place of habitation and only by transgressing could they continue their progression.

36

Another 144,000 Question

by Cold Steel in

okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. first, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on earth.

second, a spirit (in wts eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human.

they can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with god for eternity.. but what of everyone else?

Cold Steel

I would just assume a spirit would exude its own glory, just as the angels did. Remember that John, on Patmos, twice fell upon his face to worship the angel who was guiding him. Of course the angel would say, "I am the First, I am the Last" and all sorts of other things and then when John sought to worship him, he'd say, "see thou do it not, for I am a fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets!" So if an angel (most likely a resurrected prophet) could appear so glorious as to appear to be the resurrected Christ, I imagine a spirit could also appear in such glory.

After someone has his status revealed, some people would have to wish they were resurrected spirits. But perhaps not....

36

Another 144,000 Question

by Cold Steel in

okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. first, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on earth.

second, a spirit (in wts eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human.

they can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with god for eternity.. but what of everyone else?

Cold Steel

Okay, based on my reading, you're clearly better off being one of the 144,000. First, you get to reside in heaven, while everyone else is consigned to living on Earth. Second, a spirit (in WTS eschatology) is much better than being a flesh and bone human. They can fly, read in a darkened room and they get to be with God for eternity.

But what of everyone else? Will flesh and bone humans have the ability to fly, transport themselves over long distances merely by thought and learn of other worlds and beings? In other words, do you think (if you're a JW) that you'll be able to do incredible things, see incredible sights in other heavens and other dominions...maybe help create worlds or build interstellar ships? In other words, how happy are you going to be just living in Eden and eating fried chicken, corn on the cob and watermelon? Has anyone ever written about one's potential powers or abilities?

Me...I don't think we're going to have the limitations we do now. I think we'll be able to think of many different things at once and comprehend incredible things we don't have an inkling about now. In some near death experiences, people report that they could just look at complex things and immediately comprehend how they worked and what they did. They said they saw incredible buildings and other structures that made anything they saw on Earth pale in comparison. They also said they could communicate just by thought, and not merely by words, but could communicate emotions, and that their powers of recall were perfect; that they could remember any part of their lives on Earth with crystal clarity, perfectly understanding the thoughts and feelings of others.

I'm not saying this has to be the way things are, but do JWs believe their powers and abilities will far outstrip anything Adam and Eve were supposed to do, and were the 144,000 enabled to see and do much more than those who were resurrected to Earth?

If you're a JW, what do you think? Would you choose to be one of the 144,000 if given the choice? If you're a former JW, do you recall ever wishing you were one of the 144,000? Is it a secret wish most JWs share? Do they, like, say they don't have a preference, but inwardly, they do? And if you wanted it badly enough and eventually came to believe you were one of the lucky ones, at what age could you declare? Say you were 15 and you one day just partook of the emblems out of the blue, would your parents have gone through the ceiling? Doesn't it cause a stir when one does partake? Do they say, "Did you see Clyde earlier today? He partook! Who does he think he is?"

"Well, dear, it's obvious who he thinks he is. But can you believe his parents let him do that?"

How does it work? Clearly just wanting it isn't enough. How does one know?

24

How Much Power Does an Elder Have?

by Cold Steel in

i keep seeing references to them and couldn't help but wonder.. how many elders does a kingdom hall have?

what is the extent of their powers and authority?

can they speak to someone who's been dfed?

Cold Steel

Thanks for the answers.

I suppose an overseer is equal to being a bishop?

If one is in a Sunday School or other class and, say, they state an opinion that the church hasn't spoken on, or taken a position on. Would an elder's opinion carry more weight? During such a class, would the instructor defer to an elder? For example, if a person asks whether their pet dog or cat would be resurrected and someone else says, "Yeah, I think I'll have my cat Tinker Bell with me," while another says, "Well, the Bible doesn't say anything about it!" Would someone say, "What's your take on it, elder?"

And then let's say someone just happens to have a January 1921 Watchtower with them and it says that Tinker Bell is doomed to a bleak future of dark nothingness because only humans can be resurrected. Where does the buck stop? And further, what if the elder concurs with the Watchtower and says Tinker Bell will never see another ray of light or lap another drink of water, and the first person says, "Well I think I will see Tinker Bell! The scriptures don't say they can't be resurrected, so I think I will see Tinker Bell again!"

Does Tinker Bell's owner stand in danger of being redressed in private? Does the elder's opinion carry any more weight than Tink's owner?

24

How Much Power Does an Elder Have?

by Cold Steel in

i keep seeing references to them and couldn't help but wonder.. how many elders does a kingdom hall have?

what is the extent of their powers and authority?

can they speak to someone who's been dfed?

Cold Steel

I keep seeing references to them and couldn't help but wonder.

How many elders does a Kingdom Hall have? What is the extent of their powers and authority? Can they speak to someone who's been DFed? Do they have a great deal of influence in 1) keeping someone from being DFed? and 2) reinstating someone?

Is it dangerous to cross an elder? What are the qualifications for being one? How long do they serve? Who is/are their direct supervisor/s?

How many does it take to change a lightbu...er...never mind.

Can someone please let me know? I had one visit me after I asked some missionaries some tough questions on Armageddon. He clearly was the one running the session and when he left, no one came back or called...even though they said they'd "get back" to me. I have a sneaking suspicion that he decided I was a lost cause. Do they have the authority to terminate discussions? (Keep in mind I was just asking questions about why Armageddon didn't have anything to do with Jerusalem and I wasn't out gunning for them or asking one of the "Twenty-Five Questions to Ask a Jehovah's Witness"? I really did want to know and still do. But based on his behavior, I suspect he disconnected me anyway.

Oh, and BTW, why do I keep getting error messages stating:

Sorry, an error occurred while processing your request.

I'm really getting tired of them on Firefox.